Ex-Gays Afraid to Come Out for Fear of Persecution!
Posted by Stephen Black at May 10, 2008 11:45 AM and is filed under wayne besen,Persecution,exgays,nazi germany,worldnetdaily,ex-gay watch,Bill O'Reilly,exodus international,silencing christians 
I personally don't like describing myself as
"ex-gay," however; it communicates a quick sound bite of the reality
and a direction of many. So while others might be disturbed by the term,
"ex-gay" I feel it is a waste of time to wrangle over words that work
in concisely communicating. Yes, folks I am “ex-gay” though I do not find
my identity in being “ex-gay.” I am
also very concerned that there are many great stories of “ex-gays” which are
being browbeaten into silence.I have been made aware of the growing hostility towards ex-gays in the past couple of years in the media, and recently on many blogs. Even the very popular Bill O'Reilly (here’s an article here where Bill wanted to sue an ex-gay minister) continues to communicate snide chuckles on his program at the idea of ex-gays. Fox News is somewhat fair and balanced to Judeo-Christian values, yet they do a better job with conservative political news. I like and watch Fox News, and even watch O’Reilly a lot, because most of the other cable news outlets are very hostile to the idea of Christian values, never-mind the idea of ex-gays. Our culture is completely buying into the hoax of being born gay and has accepted the idea of being gay as normality.
The hostility is really growing to the message of leaving homosexuality behind. It could actually become illegal in the near future to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ in helping people find freedom from of homosexuality. Even well-meaning Christians scoff at the idea, perhaps they should view the documentary: SPEECHLESS - SILENCING the CHRISTIANS. Perhaps we should remember our history of Nazi Germany. We should at least read the recent news from our Canadian neighbors to the north. In Canada it is illegal to speak out that homosexuality is sin. It is now legislatively considered hate speech and prosecutable; a topic worth Googling. Perhaps well-meaning, well-educated yet misinformed Christians wouldn't scoff at this knowledge.
I came across this article yesterday "Ex-Gays Afraid to Come Out for Fear of Persecution" and thought this would be a good post in light of this discussion. Ex-gays are in fact, afraid to make themselves known. I have met with MANY people who are influential in my community and others who have church communities that would make it very difficult to talk about their recovery from homosexuality. Yet there is even a larger and growing threatening group of gay activists who are fueling the fire of fear and oppression in our culture. They wish to silence the freedom of choice when it comes to leaving homosexuality. The idea of leaving homosexuality is very threatening to their gay insecure existence and their political agendas. Wayne Besen, a self-proclaimed activist, is one of these very loud voices, he is cruel and mean-spirited. These groups are receiving too much attention, just like the school yard bully or another picture that comes to mind, it's like the elementary kid throwing himself down on the floor throwing the hissy-fit. I know what I want to do to that kid, but Dr. Spock wouldn’t like it! Yet our culture is deceived by Darwinian-ism and humanistic beliefs. Our society is vacillating from being increasingly afraid of these bullies or being in love with them!
There are growing numbers of political gay groups that are very disturbing to me. They are actual GAY hate groups who wish to silence the voices of ex-gays. These groups are like the brazenly named "Ex-Gay Watch" and their club of bloggers who use hatefully sarcastic words in addressing ex-gays. There are even more radical groups that are extra hateful with their narcissistic sarcasms which reveal vicious vitriol fueled by people like Wayne Besen. I have had my own personal encounters with these groups. These people have actually posted ideas of how to stalk and harm ex-gay ministries and their leaders. They sarcastically mock and hope for the demise of any ex-gay ministry leader. They write books and plays applauding, scoffing and laughing at any relapse of any individual leaving homosexuality. If someone did this with other addicts like alcoholics or other human weaknesses the media would crucify them and then completely dismiss them as cruel hateful people, like Rev. Phelps and his gang; not so for gay activists.
A very successful attorney friend of mine recently told me he felt it was like 1933 in Nazi Germany for Christians and Exodus type ministries in the USA. He seriously joked with me and said, "Stephen it is like 1933 and your last name isn't Black, but Bernstein. Your ministries will be on the front-line of the next demonic wave of an anti-Christ movement in history. It is coming." WOW! It was a sobering moment.
One merely need to lightly read over blogs like the "Ex-GAY WATCH" and/or Wayne Besen's blog and you will know we are living in very dark days. In the news just yesterday, at WorldNetDaily, Wayne Besen is revealed in an article that exposes his tactics and lies. The article by Bob Unruh describes Wayne Besen “as the Fred Phelps of the left.” Pretty scary!
It is sad how many people are afraid of gay activists, liberal blog bullies and the liberal anti-Christ media machine. They are silencing their great stories about overcoming homosexuality.
Yet in closing, we need to have hope, as Charles Dickens said, “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times…” and so shall it be right before the great and terrible day of the Lord. He is coming and HE will set things STRAIGHT!
I feel curious and wonder if you see the irony that I see here. Ex-gays are afraid to come out in fear of gay bullies and gays are afraid to come out for fear of religious bullies. Go figure that one.
It would appear that the problem goes both ways. Would you be willing to offer a solution to this that creates the world you wish to see or are you just going to throw they problem back at us. It becomes a cycle when ex-gay blame gays then gays blame ex-gays...
I would also offer that gays are not offended by ex-gays, but the politics that are played at our expense. It is tough to take in some of the messages I see coming from ex-gay organizations. They paint GLBT folks with broad brushes. I am quite saddened to read that I am a terrorist, child molester, high on drugs (grin). I also angry to find that many ex-gay organizations are still using old science, outdated research and tired myths about gay people. Perhaps the response to your religious message would be better if it wasn't clouded in bad science.
I admit not all gay activists present perfectly, but the same could easily be said of ex-gays. I would value some honesty on your part in showing that you understand your own part in the problem.
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Really Joe? You would value some discussion to show that we (ex-gays) are the problem? It seems every time I even attempt to communicate or have a discussion it is immediately used to scathe me or others and rake us through the coals of hatred and sarcasm. Or if they're nice at first (like someone recently in a private email) it is merely to try and trap me in my words and to distort them later on the Ex-gay Watch. If you read TWO - Wayne Besen's site you can see where he misquotes and distorts my blog post.
I am not a spokesperson for Exodus. I do not work for Exodus. First Stone Ministries is an member ministry, but we are not solely all about being an Exodus. We are our own organization.
If Wayne had it his way, First Stone would not be an Exodus Member, and he would give marching orders to Exodus. He thrives on divisiveness. I did not say he or gay activists were Nazis or the KKK. Where's that quote in my blog? I am actually talking about our political and cultural climate in the blog post. No doubt I could have done a better job of making that point clearer. Truth be known the Nazis would have thrown all of us, gays and ex-gays into the camps and most Christians along with the Jews (which they did). Besen is very self serving and jumped to conclusions for sensationalism. Again, one merely needs to read over his blog and see that he is mean. He is not accurate.
"Not all gay activists present perfectly" is quite the understatement. Cold you be a little more honest? Truly, I would like for you to reveal just one that presents even near perfectly and or kindly.
Having said all this, I close with that I feel I owe an apology to Wayne for making the snide remark about his narcissistic ways for a badge of honor, and making it an issue. It was provoking and unnecessary. The rest of the post is true.
Truly it is hard to deal with people so cruel. Like I said in the blog post, If anyone treated other addicts like alcoholics or other human weaknesses with such cruel attacks and sarcasm the media would crucify them and then completely dismiss them as cruel hateful people. Yet the gay activists I mentioned before have no accountability for their hatred it continues to be justified. This is even true among so called gay Christians. Quite frankly, isn't it even expected? Aren't the standards lower? Doesn't even Hollywood portray this in gay culture?
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I can hear you're angry in this post. I can also hear your doubt there are acitivists out there that are kind.
I would like to speak to your last paragraph where you say it is hard to deal with people so cruel. I sense so much anger in your words and wonder what you would say when the anger is put aside? I wonder if you can see that many gay people feel exactly the same way when it comes to the comments and tactics from ex-gay organizations.
I find your tactics just as cruel as you find Wayne's. I did a detailed critique of your Sally Kern Rally speech on my site. Your myths about abuse and poor relationships with fathers are just that..myths.
My point was and is that as angry as you sound in your comments above and your article about Wayne is just as angry as Wayne and other gay activists are when they read some of the flawed science you present to the public. It goes both ways.
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You have the audacity to call people who are criticalk to the ex-gay fraud "Cruel"? After all you defended Sally kern who called "Gays worse than terrorists". YOU siupported a tatement that claims that I, as a gay man, am more dangerous person and my life is even more heinous than that of mass murderers. You stood by that cruel and vicious hatemonger and you dare to whine about ecx-fays being persecuted? YOU ARE A LIAR.
You have no intention of helping anyone. Like other people involbved in this ex-gay frauud you seek to tortrutre and hurt spiritually and psychologically those who are Christian and gay. Not tp talk about how you allow your "ministry" to attack us who don't believe like you do.
If we're talking about cruelty, look in the mirror. But then as typical zealot you see the danger in people who seek to hurt.
Let miss tell you sissy, you won't succeed in your attempts to damage and destroy the lives of those who live openly as gay. I will fight you and haters like you until the day I day and if possible even after that. You go now and hide under Sally's skirt. After all "evil terrorist" here really, really abhors you and the evil you represent. But unlike you I will not seek to dirently to hurt you or make your family suffer. Unlike you, whose whole career is about tryting to cause as much damage to gays as possible.
Wayne Besen is right about you and your kind.
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Um, you certainly don't LOOK like an ex-gay. You look gay. A duck is a duck. What are you so afraid of? why would you want to be an "ex-gay" anyway?
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Aren't we Miss Touchy Thing today! Lions and tigers and narcissistic sarcasms, oh my! Lions and tigers and narcissistic sarcasms, oh my! Lions and tigers and narcissistic sarcasms, oh my! ...
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"Or if they're nice at first (like someone recently in a private email) it is merely to try and trap me in my words and to distort them later on the Ex-gay Watch."
I'm not certain who you refer to here, but our writers never, repeat *never* print anything from private emails unless the other party understands that their response is for the record. And when that is so, the quote is taken verbatim. If you are claiming otherwise, you are simply wrong.
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I will not be drawn into a debate over this, you are simply wrong. There are what seems like several comments where people have done this on your posts Mr. Roberts.
You might consider reading over the comments of people on your site who claim to have recent discussion with me. Aren't there several? How do you think they contacted me directly? I was not trying to communicate that you or those who run your site have emailed me. HOWEVER, actually how would I know? I wouldn't know who is on your team by name because I don't keep up with all this intolerance, hate and criticism. Hope that helps.
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I'm not debating you, just correcting your statement. Anyone officially connected with XGW would use an email @exgaywatch.com to contact you. I can't speak for the actions of anyone else.
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Stephen,
I feel sad that you have such enemy images of us. When you put those aside the picture becomes much more accurate.
Joe
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Joe, I am getting close to 50. I spent 8 years as a homosexual man. I had my own experiences in the gay community. I was raped, abused and used as a young gay man, by those in the gay community here in Oklahoma City. A very mild gay community in comparison. I have spent the last 26 years in pursuing Christ. The last 26 years have been met with many encounters of hateful people from the gay community, especially in the last 16 years in full-time ministry. I am not being bitter here, just factual about my experiences. Years ago I wouldn't even talk the word rape and abuse. I have only recently in the last 5 years started talking about that level of hurt in my past. Perhaps you really are unexperienced with the gay community, but mark my words, being raped will be mocked by gay people as I begin to tell that part of my story. It makes me wonder what gay community and world are you living in? Perhaps you are sheltered, and are a part of a very small crowd of gay people who are gentle.
I do know of some very nice and gentle gays. Especially very talented and artistic! WOW... We have all seen the talent, right? It seems you are too, I just took a look at your site. I noticed you have a blog. Should be interesting to see just how nice your posts are in dealing with conservatives. What kind of images will I have? Thank you for being kind here. You seem like a nice person. You might be interested to understand what has happened in the past month that would have me write the post to begin with. I may or may not go public. Honestly, I am tired of this commenting and blogging, not sure how much longer I will be out here in this capacity. Perhaps I will be silenced too.
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Stephen,
It sounds like your experiences as a gay man were sad, but they are yours. For me, I came out at 22 and lived outside Philly at the time. I met amazing people.
I understand and can empathize with you that your experiences have been negative, but they are yours. My experiences as a gay man have been very different. You ask what gay community I live in, well I have lived in more than one and my experiences were still positive. I am not sheltered at all, trust me. I am almost 40 years old and I am far from sheltered.
For me, Stephen I feel angry when I read your experiences because you lump all gay people into one box and call it the gay community. Not every person who identifies as gay can be lumped into a box.
Your story is yours, you own it and the choices and decisions you made. I have read your story as you presented it at the Sally Kern rally. I just dont agree with being lumped together with your negative picture of gays.
My blog is a combination of activism and the promotion of the philosophy of nonviolence. I would suggest you read it. You will see I have some strong things to say about conservatives, but I try to say those things respectfully.
I would ask Stephen that you seriously think about what it feels like for people like me to be lumped together as part of your negatives version of the gay community. I would be happy to chat with your more about this, but I would first ask that you not lump me into your dark, and mean spirited view of gays.
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Joe, I have literally met and ministered to thousands of people over the last 24 years. I have never met anyone who was truly devoted to Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and happy in homosexuality. All their experiences were sad too. However, I am not referring to the addictiveness of sexual brokenness, which again just leaves people in disillusioned. We just do not agree Joe.
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Hi Stephen,
Let me be the first one you met who is truly devoted to Jesus and happy in homosexuality. I am sorry to hear your sad story. The fact, that you said people you minister were sad too got me thinking. It seems that those who wants to change have sad experiences (abuse or been hurt in the past).Then, what about people who are actually happy to be gay. Would you accept them as who they are?
Obviously, your story and my story is different. But, would you not agree that everyone has their own calling in their life. We are given different gifts. And, I am happy that you found His Grace by being ex-gay. I respected your decision and I hope you will do the same to me.
Why are you putting everyone in the same box? Isn't this being judgemental? If I am gay, does it mean that I am being mean to you? I believe I am not.
I think sometimes we are so obsessed with being righteous that we forgot the most important commandment that Jesus taught. To Love God with all thy heart, soul and mind and To love thy neighbour as themselves. I believe that if we based our faith on these commandment we will reap the fruit of Spirit : gentle, loving, patient, self controlled etc.
And, I am not so sure about the way you are condemning Wayne as cruel and mean spirited. I am not saying this because I am on his side. I don't know who he is. I am just following the scriptures. Who are we to judge? Matthew 7:1 (Do not judge, or you too will be judged).
May God's loving Grace be with us always. Amen
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I wanted to address one thing you wrote separately. You wrote: "I have spent the last 26 years in pursuing Christ. The last 26 years have been met with many encounters of hateful people from the gay community, especially in the last 16 years in full-time ministry. I am not being bitter here, just factual about my experiences."
I would ask are people hateful or are they just angry with you? It is the easy way out to just assume they hate you, it may be harder but more accurate to ask what is going on for them? Are they hateful or are they angry, hurt or tired?
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Joe you really are amusing. Nice, and amusing. Your beliefs grieve me. I read over your. I am so sad for you. We are not going to agree. SO have a nice day.
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So you only chat with people you can reach agreement with?
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Oh why oh why do people have to take their bad experience and their issues and project it onto the entire universe? I am sorry you were abused and raped, but to make a statement like this is absurd.
Your experience is yours, not everyone's. It's another example of the ego run amok to believe differently.
Many of us were in ex-gay ministries too. I was never mocked or abused by my gay friends when I chose that option. They didn't think it would lead to any real change and after years of trying, I realized they were right and found a gay-friendly congregation. Most of the people in the Desert Stream group I was involved with ended up in gay-friendly churches for the same reason.
Again, I am sorry you had a bad experience, but lots of heterosexuals are raped and abused, even in two parent devout Christian families.
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One more thing: "Hate" is a very strong word. I have met very few people who simply "hate" anything. Most adults have more nuanced feelings than simply loving and hating people or ideas. Using this kind of language will make others wonder whether you fully understand the vast range of human emotions or whether everything is simply black-and-white or on-or-off in your world.
We're not 5 year old children, we are all adults. But throwing around the "h" word suggests 5 year old thinking. So you might want to change the way you express yourself.
I know our culture doesn't encourage nuanced thinking or seeing all the greys in the world, but we should be more than the product of our culture. I doubt that anyone simply hates you, they may adamantly and hotly disagree with you or be critical of your actions, but that isn't the same thing.
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As a child of two survivors of the Nazi's, I think you have your roles confused. Your paranoid ravings are more reminiscent of the facist Nazi's than the Jews. Your delusions of persecution are just fuel for your hate. I have to tell you that the more you protest against Gayness as a natural condition, the more it seems to me that you are Gay and in dread of admitting it, nothing more.
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I'm new here. But I'm not new to the debate on this subject.
I am a black woman, heterosexual and understand well what it feels like to be a member of a suspect class. Stephen, it's not about ex gay having no voice or being silenced. It's about not having a new or healthy message to offer. The message perpetuated is old, and retread, but it's by no means something that can be called healthy in because of discriminatory and bigoted institutions that it fosters. It would be fair to say that it's gay people who now deserve to have the floor in the court of public opinion and their voices heard for a time. I don't happen to mistake the yoke of mistreatment, injustice and bigotry and call homosexuality the burden. I could say my blackness or womanhood is a burden, and it has been prior to the realization of equality and justice.
And it's that equality and justice that will have to test who is right. And since the ex gay voice has been loud, clear and forceful and without challenge for centuries. It's arrogant and rude to decide that gay people are so bereft of humanity and legitimacy that it's THEIR silence that's been preferred.
Well, there is more than the superficialities that the ex gay industry demands I look at. I don't WANT to hear from ex gays because I can't and won't learn anything new. Or special. I am, after all, heterosexual myself. And there is something about the ex gay personal that rings of caricature and exaggeration and so little variance as to be called genuine. I will learn nothing about gay people without hearing from and experiencing gay people. There is no rational reason to ONLY hear about them from straight people who prefer to engender FEAR to make a point.
I see gays and lesbians employing contributive integration to make THEIRS. I see an entire class of people who transcend ALL cultures and who originated before any given religion. This is a human condition worth learning more about and hearing about it from those who live it. Not those who fear it. I could learn about Jews from Jews...or learn about Jews from non Jews and Anti Semites.
Which would YOU prefer I learn about Jews or being gay from?
The trouble about being ex gay is authenticity and individuality and outmoded and outdated information that has absolutely NO qualifiers. And faith isn't enough when lives are on the line.
Like young Lawrence King who was murdered for being an unapologetic gay kid. He lost his life, and Brian McInerney, a class mate who executed him, lost his freedom. They paid the price for the information you and the ex gay industry spreads.
The stakes aren't so high for you, you appear to be heterosexual on the surface. So you speaking isn't so necessary as the voice of Lawrence King's who was silenced by death, and the boy who listened TOO well to a voice like yours.
No winners here. None at all. And no reason for YOU to continue unabated any longer, Stephen.
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Oh...and don't lie about what happens to ministers in CANADA.
The real issue there is : slander and libel. Many ministers go WELL beyond the literal terms of the Bible and foment stereotypes and myths that so dehumanize gay people that it puts gay people at risk.
And ministers who point the fingers of blame at gay people for disease, earthquakes, 9/11 and any other kinds of human disasters ARE commiting a libel and bearing false witness.
And if it gets young gay people bullied, or they commit suicide or a hate crime occurs that makes a Canadian citizen lose their lives, have to have an expensive trial and incarceration-then the Canadian government is right to CAUTION religious people on the LIABILITY of their fervor.
Religious people CAN be a liability sometimes, and just because you don't want to believe it is beside the point.
And Canada doesn't have to accept liabilities from ministers who don't know when to back off.
As I said, two young boys paid a horrible price from the same liable that YOU support Stephen. Some countries are more practical than others on how gay men and women are to be treated in society.
If you ever thought continuing humiliation, shame, physical threat and other coercive actions ever worked on a person who committed no offense against another and who only knows they were MADE that way by nature's lottery-then you'd be selling God as an ABUSIVE parent and you as his abusive agent. There is never any gentle way to tell an innocent child that they were never meant to be, God doesn't want them to exist and they are the ones responsible for all manner of bad things happening if they don't try and change their orientation. What a terrible thing to indoctrinate a child with. Which is utterly confusing and contradictory because they can clearly see their heterosexual peers failing and never presented with the same set of conundrums and impossible standards.
The only way you could be trusted Stephen is if you supported equal opportunity and standards. Otherwise you are empty words and actions, if not damaging ones.
Authenticity matters. Whether it's being a good empathetic, not controlling Christian. To being an authentic heterosexual who can't blame THEIR pathologies on their orientation and aren't forced to.
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I can also say Stephen, that I've been abused by WHITE PEOPLE and had much in my life destroyed by them.
But I won't blame ALL white people for my troubles, nor will I use it as a convenient way to indict them all in the socio/political sphere.
Victimological terms for you bigoted response is like me trying to be a man because it's harder to BE a woman and I get abused BECAUSE I'm a woman.
You are a DROPOUT Stephen. I ask you,
if I turned on white people...or men in particular and tried to score social points to an eager man hating group of people...what would you think of ME as a woman?
Your blues ain't like man, and mine ain't like yours.
You got the blues....so?
Where is the justification to hate gay people and make them an easy target because YOU know what can happen to gay people who NEVER abused you.
White women liked to accuse a black man of making a pass and the next thing he knew, that black man was lynched.
You like that white woman? Asking the mob to socio/politically lynch gay people for the offenses against you?
Stephen, that ain't healthy. I work in law enforcement, and you being on the march like this makes YOU look really, really bad.
Not the gay people in general you've turned on.
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I don't hate gay people by exposing the gay political tactics. Isn't that ironic? I fear for them. I believe the Bible. I know there's a better way to live life. I once embrace homosexuality. There is a better way. I hope you have enjoyed your rant, I am not going to enter into it. If you really knew me and my family you would not have ranted on and you certainly would not have used the race issue. Obviously you have not read the blog links and you know very little about me.
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I believe the Bible too and choose to look at it in context.
The Bible doesn't discuss monogamous gay relationships at all, nor does it give any direct support to the idea that someone can become ex-gay.
According to all Jewish and early Christian commentary, the Leviticus passages specifically condemn male-to-male anal sex, period. Many gay men choose not to have anal sex and it's certainly not necessary in order to have a committed relationship.
A careful reading of Romans 1 shows that St. Paul was talking about pagan cult prostitution. In Romans 1:23 he even goes to the trouble to tell us what the pagan gods looked like and then juxtaposed it with an orgy. First and Second Century Christians - Jerome, Anastasios, St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Augustine of Hippo and others - didn't believe that Romans 1 condemned homosexuality, they believed it condemned non-procreative heterosexuality - so any couple using the pill are condemned by Romans 1. (This may seem counter-intuitive until you understand Roman pagan religion - specifically the Cybelle/Attis cult.)
Martin Luther translated arsenokoitai in 1 Corinthians 6.9 as "child molesters" and the Roman Catholic Church used the passage to condemn masturbation for 1,000 years.
Employing sloppy, non-contextual Biblical exegesis and ignoring what early commentators who wrote about it IN the period the Bible was written isn't what "believing the Bible" is about. That is why an increasing number of Christian - both scholars and lay - in mainline AND evangelical denominations are coming to a different view. Most gay friendly churches in the gay community are conservative and evangelical. Look in your local gay yellow pages and see for yourself.
Certainly, being ex-gay isn't a better way for most of us. We've been there, done that, and finally accepted God's grace as a gay men and put the self-righteousness aside. This is also why I gave up on the intellectual bankruptcy of American evangelicalism. It just uses the Bible to support middle class American values and ignores the very real cultural and linguistic differences that exist.
Finally, there is nothing to fear for us. God calls us to have faith, or trust, in Christ. Those who do have nothing to fear, even if we make an honest mistake. EVERYONE will die with unrepentant sin. The Good News is that the cross took care of that. Martin Luther said: "If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign."
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I ran out of space. Martin Luther's entire quote is:
"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign.
It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."
Believing a Christian is going to hell because of unrepentant sin is a form of works righteousness. Our salvation becomes dependent on our works - recognizing and repenting of sin - rather than God's grace.
Sadly, it's just one of many Christian heresies embraced by modern American evangelicalism and a big reason I walked away for something better.
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There is an article on the First Stone Web site that addresses what you purposed here.
http://www.firststone.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=221&Itemid=14
I will be posting something soon that is filled with Scripture as well to address your concern.
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If ex-gays simply called themselves heterosexuals, went and went about their lives there would be no reason for the gay community to bat an eyelash in your direction.
However, I see a lot of ex-gays using their own experience to promote inequality, and second-class citizenship for gays. I see ex-gays, such as yourself, saying the gay community is all ____. That was your experience. It sucks that it happens, but it's not the norm. I see ex-gays standing up as if to say, "Don't believe the gays, they can change, they just need a reason..." and that's when Lawrence King happens, that's when Matthew Shepard happens, that's when Daniel Fetty happens. And while we're on the subject, I rarely if ever see anyone truly talk about what they mean by "change", they know that popular belief is change = 100% gay to 100% straight, but you and I know the truth. It's more like 50/50 bisexual to not practicing the gay part(but still feeling it), or 100% gay to 100% gay(but celibate). The only thing that changes is your perspective and attitude, the orientation never does, and no scientific study has ever proven otherwise without torturing and twisting the notion of change until it doesn't resemble anything you'd find in a dictionary.
So, if you want the hostility to end, do the following:
1) Take responsibility for your contribution to LGBT suicide rates and hate crime statistics. If you really don't think you have any responsibility there, you really are deluded.
2) Stop fighting equality iniatives and start supporting them(equality includes you too, after all).
3) Stop painting the gay community with broad strokes. Gay people are just that, people, prone to being angels and devils just like everyone else.
4) Stop using the word "change" without explaining EXACTLY what you mean by that.
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Stephen your paranoia is showing: "Perhaps I will be silenced too." Silence you? On the contrary, I want you and EXODUS to keep talking. The more you do, the more you make total fools of yourselves. Silence you? Heck no. I say hire a skywriter and post it in the sky so everyone can see your anti-gay nonsense (and Sally Kern's)for what it is.
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Wow! There is a lot going here. Stephen, if I can beg upon you, please keep in mind that none of the posts above criticize you swapping out your 'homosexuality' for your 'heterosexuality' however you see fit. From what I've read here, the criticism seem to stem from your view, that characterizes ALL GAY people as rapist debauchees. We all know this isn't true.
As for Sally Kern's statements in March. Yeah, I wrote her. But I was not mean, nor vulgar in my email. Many anti-gay folks put out the message that 20,000 people emailed Sally mean and hateful things. It simply isn't true. Yes, there were like a lot of that nature, but here is what I wrote to her, and say to you by way of the email sent from me to her:
Hi Sally,
I just read the following remarks on a website attributed to you:
Kern argues that the gay agenda includes indoctrinating young children, “They want to get our young children into the government schools so that they can indoctrinate them...They're going after our young children, as young as two years of age, to try to teach them the homosexual lifestyle is an acceptable lifestyle ”.
Sally, you are grossly misinformed. Gay and Lesbian people do NOT 'recruit' anybody. This notion is a total falsehood.
It might be wise to re-educate yourself about who and what the Gay and Lesbian community is really all about. Then you might be able to make more fair and honest statements.
Permit me to suggest that you make a reasonable effort to meet some people in the Gay and Lesbian community.
Good luck,
Tom
San Diego
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Stephen, the exposure of religious conservatives and anti gay political tactics have taken up ALL the oxygen in the lexicon on who deserves what in matters of justice and equality.
The political tactics of gay people has been CONSIDERABLY patient, compassionate and legitimate. Why should gay people stand around and do nothing until their fellow human beings decide they are human enough to be considered an equal partner in social progress and civility?
You don't like the political tactics of gay people addressing the courts, their elected representatives, assembling peacefully and writing in their own media?
We live in a country as well, where some people use violence and physical threat to assert a grievance.
Gay people don't respond in kind.
Yet, you think how they DO respond is too forward, loud or outrageous for your taste?
I think young children murdering OTHER young children because they are gay carries a great deal more legitimate urgency than YOU getting offended by that reality.
I don't rant. One thing I see over and over again from avowed ex gays...
you seriously can't handle the heavy lifting.
Really.
I see legitimate parallels in the TREATMENT of gay people in socio/political history with blacks than you have legitimate reason to deny it.
It's hard to be gay. It's hard to be a woman, it's hard to be black.
Some of us are strong enough to DEAL with it and tough it all out.
I trust gay folks that are authentic to their identity to be the best soldiers FOR ANYONE.
And one case in point, you want to run now because you don't like my 'tone'?
That's all you got?
Bullseye.
That didn't take much.
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